Ep. 13: Gary Direnfeld on Social Worker as Peacemaker as Marketer

Episode Overview

Gary Direnfeld is a social worker with more than 33 years of experience working with parents, teens and young children. Through his private practice in Dundas and Georgina, Ontario, he provides counseling, mediation and assessment services in matters of family life. Courts consider Direnfeld an expert on child development, parent-child relations, and marital therapy, as well as custody and access recommendations.

Direnfeld writes a weekly parenting column in his city’s daily newspaper. He has made hundreds of appearances on radio and television as a guest expert on family matters and hosted 65 episodes of the reality show Newlywed/Nearly Dead, working with newlywed couples.

An advocate for the wellbeing of children, Direnfeld has lectured and given workshops on the impact of domestic violence and parental separation and divorce issues on children throughout the United States and Canada. He was the first social worker to sit on the Ontario Collaborative Law Federation Board of Directors.

In this podcast, Direnfeld joins host Rackham Karlsson in a dialogue regarding the importance of marketing in building a private peacemaking practice and building relationships with potential referral sources.

Key Takeaways

  • As a mental health professional, it is possible to build a lucrative practice without offering court services. Consider the range of unbundled services you might offer — for example, parents in conflict wanting to resolve their differences without litigation.
  • Marketing is essential in building a successful private peacemaking practice. Build relationships with influencers and other collaborative law professionals, as they are your best referral sources.
  • Ask yourself, “Where do the people who need my services go? How do I influence other people to direct them to me?” Think creatively to identify those gatekeepers who might become invaluable referral sources.
  • Create a content-rich website with easily digestible blog posts and videos. Authentic micro content keeps your practice top of mind, especially when you take the time to be a part of the dialogue by responding to user comments.
  • Leverage the mainstream media to build your reputation via letters to the editor, radio and television appearances. Such visibility allows you to reach a wider audience and foster a successful practice.

Listen Here

Episode Transcript

Rackham:

Welcome to the ADR Initiative. This is the podcast where you’ll hear from successful mediators, arbitrators, collaborative law attorneys, coaches, and other alternative dispute resolution professionals about what they do, how they got here, and valuable lessons they’ve learned along the way. I'm your host, Rackham Karlsson. Today I'm talking with Gary Direnfeld. Gary is a social worker with more than 33 years of experience working with parents, teens and young children. With a private practice in Dundas and Georgina, Ontario, he provides counseling, mediation and assessment services on most matters of family life. Gary also practices as a peacemaker, and he was the first social worker to sit on the Board for Collaborative Law for the province of Ontario. Welcome to the show, Gary.

Gary:

Great to be with you, Rackham.

Rackham:

I’m going to jump right in here. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about the services you provide today in your business.

Gary:

Sure. Well, I’m a social worker by profession. I explain to people that I help people to get along, and I help people feel better about themselves. I also help other people to develop their own helping services. That’s what I do day in and day out – it just depends on the problem that’s being brought to my attention.

Rackham:

So you’re a mediator, a social worker… What would you say is the balance of your practice?

Gary:

Oh my goodness. Probably 50/50 between peacemaking services and clinical services. In terms of my peacemaking services, if people go to my website, yoursocialworker.com, you’ll see that I offer – I’ve lost count now – some 15 to 20 unbundled services, all in a peacemaking capacity. People think very linearly, narrowly about their own practice. They’ll call themselves a mediator or a separation coach. There are so many other services that we as mental health professionals can bring to the table to help parents in conflict resolve their differences.

Rackham:

It’s really interesting that you mention that because it’s something I try to explain to a lot of attorneys as well. They ask, “Can I make a living in ADR?” and I say, “It’s not just mediation and collaborative law. You can also provide all of these unbundled services, a whole range of different ways that you can be of service without going to court.”

Gary:

Yes, absolutely. There’s the theme throughout my services – without going to court. So many people get hung up on the court process. So many people get hung up that if they’re going to court maybe they need an evaluator, or as we refer here in Canada, an assessor. The truth is, you can still provide those services, and you can do it outside of court. I have people who come to me in mediation who will sit down and try and figure out what needs to be resolved, what’s at issue, how people feel about things, and then we can actually craft a resolution process that addresses all of their needs, some of which may include, in part, assessment services, it may include hearing the voice of the child, it may include meeting with extended kin who are influential in the outcomes for these matters. Once you think more flexibly and creatively, really there’s no limit to how you can be helpful.

Rackham:

Yes, that’s been my experience as well. I had somebody in my office just today who has essentially gotten 95% of the way there in her divorce and just wants some help getting across the finish line. There’s no reason – just because you call yourself a mediator or an arbitrator or a collaborative law attorney or whatever it is – that you can’t just take the person as they are and say, “What is your need right now, and how can I be of help?” It sounds like that’s true of just about any profession, including social work – that you can just take people as they are and see how you can be of service to them.

Gary:

Absolutely. One of the things that I see separating parents get hung up on is this issue of decision-making, custody. It’s not uncommon for one parent to believe that all decision-making authority should be invested in themselves – sole custody. Then you’ve got to sit back because as soon as one parent says the sole custody card, you’ve got to know that the fight is on. But if you sit down and hear that parent through and try to understand what is underneath that request, then you can break it down and say, “Do you really need sole custody?” If you’re in the same school jurisdiction, if you’re of the same faith, if you’re going to follow through with medical advice (heaven forbid your child needs some surgery), do you really need sole decision-making authority? Let’s say the issue is extra-curricular activities, and you’re at odds over that. Maybe all you need is a process in place to resolve those disputes discreetly so that neither parent – in a sense – needs to feel like that second-class parent having no authority over the decisions that affect their children. This is what I mean by thinking creatively, breaking things down and looking at solutions that can be settled peacefully.

Rackham:

That’s great. Now you mentioned the common theme of “without litigation.” Has that always been the case for your practice?

Gary:

No, I used to offer a lot of services – well, not a lot, but a few services – that would be used in or for litigation. I used to provide custody and access assessments as we call it here, or evaluations as you call it there. I also used to provide parenting coordination that included the arbitration function. As the decision influencer, as the assessor evaluator or the decision-maker, as the arbitrator, it’s really common to feel the wrath of the parent who’s dissatisfied with the outcome, the result of your influencer decision. In the 1990’s, when I was doing a lot of this work and even the first part of the new millennium, I’ve got to tell you the attitude – at least here in Canada – was you could make decisions, you could be an influencer. And at the end of that process, both parties would shake your hand. They would be grateful; they’d be thankful. As time marched on though, it really got more and more litigious to the point where a contrary outcome, an outcome that’s contrary to one of the parties, is not met with finality. It’s met as a challenge to how they’re going to undo that and right their version of the wrong. In so doing, they also find that they need to smear the service provider who got them there. These days, folks like myself who were providing those services were at greater and greater risk of complaints to our licensing bodies. Indeed, I have certainly experienced that as well. So you sit back and you say, “These services, they really aren’t helping people anymore because they’re looked at as a challenge, not as an outcome – and then we’re at risk for providing them.” I don’t know that it makes sense to offer those services any longer. When I reflected on my practice, I thought: 1) It was no longer serving the people that I sought to serve, and 2) Again, it was putting me at risk. The decision to go into full-time peacemaking really made itself. I’m good at marketing; I’m good at getting myself known out there. So to have retooled my practice – yes, that took some work and effort but well worth it. And quite frankly, I have a much easier practice now as a result of that.

Rackham:

That’s great. Let’s go back a little bit farther. Can you tell us a little bit about how you ended up where you are today doing the work that you do?

Gary:

I swung into private practice the late part of 1989, beginning of 1990. I was a social worker in a medical setting. I was unsatisfied with the quality of service in that setting, as a result swung into private practice. I did so with great naiveté. I thought that by letting maybe 20, 30, 40 physicians know that I’m here and available for service, the referrals would come in and I would do well. Like I say, that was full on naiveté. The result of that – my first year of private practice I think I earned about $6,000, my second year about $12,000. It didn’t take too long after that to realize that if I’m going to be successful, apart from being a good clinician, I need to become a good marketer. A lot of my attention was refocused on learning how to market. With that, somebody had said, “People aren’t going to refer to you if they haven’t met you. They don’t know if you’ve got two heads, four eyes, etc.” With that, my first strategy was to go out and meet my potential referral sources, which at the time was primarily family doctors. So I’d call up their receptionists and ask for five minutes of the physician’s time.

You start to see these things in a funnel, and by that I mean if you phone 100 physicians’ offices to ask to see the physician, maybe you get a 20% uptick. Maybe 20% out of that 100 will set a five-minute appointment for you. And of that 20 folks you’ve met with, maybe three or four will start referring clients to you. I had to learn that funnel. Then the issue becomes, how do you leverage those referrals, how do you leverage those physicians who start to refer to you? Of course you do that by asking their permission, “Can I use you as a reference?” One thing leads to another to another to another. Before you know it, you’re getting the referrals that you need to keep your practice alive. That was the beginning.

Rackham:

That funnel concept is so important in marketing. It’s true whether you’re marketing to referral sources or directly to clients. You have to take that top down view and understand that as you’re working your way down the funnel, the numbers get smaller and smaller. But your goal is eventually that paying client. Beyond that, a lot of marketing funnels have the evangelist, the client who’s worked with you, who’s happy with your services and then becomes a referral source in their own right because they’ve been through the funnel, and they want to send people to you.

Gary:

Absolutely. Now I’ve got to tell you, a difference between a legal service versus a clinical service... I think that finding the evangelists, those who are going to promote you who love you, I think that’s actually easier in the legal context than the clinical context, the rationale being the issue of stigma. Unfortunately, there’s still a stigma attached with mental health services. Our clients aren’t going to run out and say, “Wow! That was the best therapist ever!” But they will run out and say, “Wow! That was the best lawyer ever! I won my case!” So while we do have our evangelists, those clients who spread the word about your good service – and at this point I enjoy many such clients – you’ve got to be careful at the initial stages of a mental health practice to not rely on that, but rather you’ve got to find a way to build your referral sources.

I was chatting with someone else recently – the difference between advertising and marketing. Advertising is about catching fish one at a time, it’s the beauty pageant approach. I’m going to put my picture out there. I can help you with this problem. Here I am. There isn’t a lot of content to that, and you have to be meeting somebody’s pressing or immediate need. That’s differentiated from marketing which is instead of fishing for today’s fish, you’re creating a pool or a sanctuary where you’re going to amass fish so that you have a steady stream so to speak of potential clients or customers. My concentration has always been on marketing, developing relationships, and all at little to no cost.

Rackham:

Some of the best things we can do to bring in business are the least expensive. Something like just going to lunch with people. You’re going to eat lunch anyway, so it’s really not that much more expensive to have it with somebody who you can form that professional relationship with and maybe even not just become referral sources to each other but even become friends – which is one of the things I love about this business. The people who I meet are – almost to a person – such friendly, warm, congenial people that you form relationships that are really very meaningful.

Gary:

Particularly on the peacemaking side of this business. There’s quite a different disposition when you’re trying to do that with litigators. From my experience, they really do have a different disposition. Everything seems to be seen as a competition versus a cooperative, and I enjoy the cooperative approach. I find that we can further each other’s interests when we pull in the same direction.

Rackham:

Yes, I noticed that same thing when I made the shift to peacemaking practice and I started going to collaborative law practice groups and mediation seminars and all of that. There was a very different tone in the room, and everybody was very supportive of each other in a way that you don’t necessarily feel as a lawyer, at least. When you’re going to a seminar where you’re learning how to take the best advantage of the law to win your case, you might be in a room of other people who are also looking to win their case and who might be opposing counsel to you. I think that has a way of setting a tone that you just don’t see in peacemaking practice or ADR or whatever you want to call it.

Gary:

Absolutely. I’ve always had the disposition that the degree to which I can help somebody in their practice, the degree to which I can help others to be successful… I have found that that only works for me. So many people worry about doing that from a competitive perspective, that if I help you be successful it will be at a loss to me. It’s just not my experience. When I’m helpful to others, they’re grateful. They’re not fighting back. They’re looking for ways to pay it back, in a nice way. I really encourage other people to be helpful as well.

Rackham:

That giving spirit really has a way of coming back around, and it feels good to help people. So why not do it?

Gary:

Yes. Now enter the new millennium and the internet. I used to do a lot of my introductions by snail mail and even a lot by fax. I would fax broadcasts. Then along came email, the internet. I was an early adopter to the internet, early adopter to developing my own website. My website, yoursocialworker.com, I still haven’t migrated it to a platform that’s user-friendly for mobile devices. But having said that, my website gets about 1 million, 1.2 million hits annually, and it’s all on the basis of content. I’m always recommending to my colleagues that they do whatever they can to increase the content on their websites. To that end, I tell them that they can use my content freely. I ask for attribution – it doesn’t have to be the top of the page, almost like a footnote if they like. I let people use my content, they can develop their own content. But the degree to which their websites are content rich, you wind up earning more hits. More hits, more traffic, more being noticed and recognized out there. I don’t know that a lot of our colleagues truly appreciate how powerful that is.

Rackham:

No, I think you’re right. I think a lot of people don’t. A lot of people might hear from you or from me or somebody else that it’s a good idea to have a blog. But they might not realize what the underlying principle is – which is to develop a reputation for thought leadership, to have content that people find interesting and that they’ll find time and time again. I have articles that I wrote several years ago, they’re still working for me. They’re still out there, they’re still useful to people and they find it and then they find the rest of my site and then they call me.

Gary:

Then there’s the leveraging of your blog because as you and I both know, people can put comments there, or through our social media, whether it’s LinkedIn, Twitter or Facebook, and as they place their comments, we need to be responsive. We need to add to the commentary. When we do that, our sites become what we call sticky. It gives them a reason to come back, to linger, to stay with us, and we develop relationships online which are then used as sources of referrals.

Rackham:

Absolutely. It sounds like you’ve put a lot of thought into building your business and marketing. From a business perspective, what’s one big mistake that you made along the way and what did you learn from it?

Gary:

The biggest mistake when I got started was the belief that I only had to send out one message. People would know I was here and they would refer. I am forever disabusing people of that same myth. We have to continuously remain top of mind for folks and we can only do that by continuously putting ourselves out there. That mistake of just not marketing enough, not reminding people of our availability, that was a real big one.

Even on the Internet, the belief that a website creates business… A website doesn’t really create business. A website is just a fancy-dancy brochure. You walk into any physician’s office, there’s dozens of brochures, and it’s hard to differentiate one brochure from the other. We need way more than a website. That’s where the social media comes in, that’s where the blogs come in, that’s where you need to be interactive with those folks who are attracted to you. This ongoing marketing, it’s a continuous and dynamic process, and if you think otherwise you won’t get there.

Rackham:

Now the one thing I will say about having a website where it can on its own bring in business is if you make sure it gets listed in the local listings. Google for Business – I forget what they’re calling it now – Google Places or Google for Business, Yelp, some of those local listings. They’re not going to bring in all the business that you need, but when somebody’s looking up your service and they’re looking for something that’s close to them, at least being in the local listings and having a good website when they find you can be helpful. But I agree completely, you need to be staying top-of-mind, generating content that’s useful, making sure people see you as a source of valuable information, and that you’re helpful to them and they in turn will want to be helpful to you.

Gary:

Absolutely. If any folks are still mystified by the Internet, by blogs, by websites, there’s so much online help. You can do much of this yourself. You can create your own content; you can create your own videos yourself. Here’s the nice thing. It used to be a few years ago that the content had to look pretty sharp, pretty professional-looking to have credibility. That was a passing fad as it turns out. These days, the more credible content is those blogs, vlogs (video blogs) that are a bit edgy, that have a homespun look to them, that are not slick. That bodes well for the vast majority of people who would be looking to do this themselves. You don’t have to have the slickest product on the internet anymore, you just have to have a presence.

Rackham:

I think what people respond to is authenticity. It could be grainy video, the audio could be a little bit off, but if you’re being authentic and putting yourself out there as your authentic self, people respond to that. On the other side, you could spend a million dollars on a very beautiful ad that people just see as a very beautiful ad and they don’t have any kind of emotional response to it at all.

Gary:

I’ve got to tell you, I have participated in several collaborative law professional videos, and they are well done. I’m not going to take anything away from the production values. Having said that, I don’t think anyone watches them. They typically run 10 to 15 minutes. These days, if your video is over three minutes, that’s already a really long video. People have to realize… Keep it simple – I like your word – keep it authentic, and keep it short so that we can deliver, if you will, pithy – several pithy messages than one long dissertation.

Rackham:

Definitely. It’s what Gary Vaynerchuk – I don’t know if you’re familiar with Gary V., he’s a social media marketing guy – and he wrote a book called Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. The jab is what he calls micro content, which is exactly what you’re referring to. You put a little piece out there, you put a little piece out there. People start to recognize you; they like the little bits of content you’re putting out. They’re not daunting to consume. You can just – in passing, on your phone – watch a little video, read a little article. And then at some point, you might deliver the right hook which is, “Hey, would you like to hire me.” But micro content, authentic little bits that people can consume easily is fantastic.

Gary:

Absolutely. So that’s a lot of what I do. People have to realize that their blogs – 300 to 750 words max. Again, that too has to be easily digestible. In terms of mistakes… Listen, I’ve probably made them all along the way. That belief that one size fits all, I didn’t differentiate my practice at the beginning, I didn’t speak to enough people, I had a brochure, I thought that would sell. You come to realize that you have to be adept at forming relationships. Part of what we discussed already, Rackham, you talked about relationships with our own kind, with other collaborative lawyers, or myself with not only collaborative lawyers, mediators, but also mental health persons. That’s not necessarily the best place to form these relationships. They’re important. They’re necessary, but not sufficient. People really have to think long and hard, who are the influencers out there who can drive traffic to your service.

Chatting with one collaborative lawyer more recently, she was saying that she gets great traffic from the beauty shop, the hair dresser, the nail salon. It works for her. She’s cultivated relationships with a number of local nail salons in particular. Whatever it is that works for you. You have to think in terms of, “Where do the people who need my service, where may they go? How do I influence other people there to redirect them to me?”

In my practice, I do a lot of work reaching out to family doctors for marriages on the cusp. Typically, the woman goes into the family doctor in distress. It could be anxiety, could be depression. Underneath that is a marital issue or a relationship issue. I let the physician know that I am happy to accept those referrals. They come to me with their partner. Hopefully I am able to help them resolve the issues, but if not then I am able to direct them through mediation or collaborative law processes. I wind up being a good referral source to other mediators and collaborative law professionals as a result of my marketing strategies that draw me those relationships that are on edge.

Rackham:

You called those people influencers. Another term that I’ve seen used is gatekeeper – essentially the first point of contact, the first person to learn about this situation where you could be of service. You mentioned beauty salons. I think that’s a great idea because somebody’s sitting in the chair, they’re getting a service and they’re talking about their life, and the beautician is in a great position to say, “Hey, there’s this guy down the road that you might want to talk to.”

Gary:

Absolutely. Other influencers are the financial professionals, and I’m not talking about the financial divorce professionals, I’m talking about your financial advisor. Your financial advisor has a vested interest in their clients preserving their assets. If you go to court and duke it out over your assets, you and I both know that’s going to be a shrinking asset. If they refer their clients to myself as a mediator or yourself as a collaborative lawyer, there’s a greater likelihood that their clients’ assets will be preserved, they’ll continue to manage their greater resources. That reflects on their income. There’s some good self-interest when marketing to the financial sector, the financial professionals as well.

Rackham:

We talked about some mistakes that you made. What do you think is one of the best business decisions that you’ve made to date? You may have already mentioned it, but what do you consider one of your best business decisions to date?

Gary:

Very early on in my practice, I realized that I had to reach as many people as possible, and this is before the proliferation of the internet, so I’m talking about the early 1990’s. I realized that I wanted to be on radio, TV and in the newspaper. I sent out letters of introduction to newspaper editors, TV and radio producers, those people responsible for finding professionals to give comment on the social issues of the times. That was difficult to start, so I also started writing a lot of letters to the editor, and over time those would be published. I leveraged those letters to the editor with the newspaper editors and with the radio and TV publishers – producers, rather. Saying, “Look, just to give you a sense of where I’d be coming from, here’s my letter to the editor.” That led to a lot of radio and television appearances. That eventually led to my having my own television show. Here in Canada, I’m a media personality. I had a television reality show called Newlywed, Nearly Dead that ran for 65 episodes. Then along with that – leveraged that – I became the parenting, family life, relationship columnist for our daily newspaper, to date about 400 question and answer columns. I’m Dear Abby or Ann Landers in our city. This was a phenomenal decision on my part to leverage the power of the mainstream media, and I am still recommending this strategy to people today. It’s even, in some ways, easier today because of this voracious 24/7 news cycle. There are ways to leverage these opportunities. In fact, I’m doing a workshop in a few weeks’ time locally to help collaborative professionals, mediators, mental health professionals leverage all of the strategies that you and I have talked about so far.

Rackham:

That’s great advice. Switching gears here a little bit… What’s one tool in your office, your computer, on your phone that you would recommend to other professionals?

Gary:

You know what? I don’t know that I have any particular tool better or different than what most people have on their desktop anymore. I’ve always had a webcam so that I could always produce my own videos, communicate like we are via Skype. I think that’s just an invaluable tool. In fact, that facilitates service internationally now. Having these tools, you can extend your practice anywhere that anyone else in the world has a webcam. I think that’s just an invaluable tool these days.

Rackham:

Yes, and of course so many computers come with a webcams built in, but I wonder how many people actually use them – other than to Skype with family or something. Going a little bit more low tech now, what’s one book that you consider essential reading for anyone doing ADR or related services?

Gary:

You know, it’s funny because I’m not a big book reader. Almost all my reading is social science literature. I’m reading more journals that have numerous articles written by all the big wigs of the field so that I want to be cutting edge, if you will, in terms of my knowledge of what’s going on. But if I were to recommend some books for those who are working with difficult-to-serve people, pretty much anything by Bill Eddy. I’m a big fan of Bill’s, I’ve attended a number of his workshops, I’ve had the opportunity to chat with him privately on a number of occasions. He’s a sweetheart of a guy, he’s an excellent writer, and he provides strategies for engaging and working with some of the most difficult people we serve. I guess I’d recommend any of his books.

Rackham:

People around here love him too. He has such a great reputation, and any time the topic of high conflict clients comes up, you’re almost guaranteed to hear his name come up as well.

Gary:

Apart from books, I’m a big fan of Woody Mosten. I’ve co-presented with him; I’ve attended his trainings. He’s also just a very sweet man – I don’t know how else to… Yes, he’s bright, he knows what he’s doing, he brilliant, but he’s sweet. He’s a lovely person. If you get an opportunity to attend a workshop of his, you can’t lose. You can’t lose.

Rackham:

I did attend one of his workshops last year. In that workshop, at least a couple of people – in that moment – decided to give up litigation. He’s not only very warm and just a pleasure to be around, but he’s also very inspiring. He has that sort of service mentality that we were talking about before, really wanting to help people with their own practices and putting that out there in the world.

Gary:

Good people.

Rackham:

Yes. For those just starting out or wanting to grow their ADR practices, what have you found to be the best way to attract new clients? I think you mentioned this before. Is it the referrals?

Gary:

If you’re just setting out, you have to establish some relationships. Maybe when you’re first starting out, then advertising is important. You have to get yourself out there to the masses and hopefully attract a little bit of business to get you going. Then beyond that you want to develop the relationships with those influencers or gatekeepers who in turn can then refer to you. For that, you have to find your way of getting in front of them. As I mentioned earlier, we tend not to refer to people who we haven’t met before. We need more than a name and a number. People have to see that we don’t have two heads, six eyes or whatever. You need to find ways of getting in front of people. That could be through meetings, it could be through lunch, it could be through workshops, and it could be through mainstream media. Any of these strategies to get you out there, including your blogs and placing videos on your website and through your blogs as well, so that people have a sense of how you actually come across. They need a look and feel for this person, not just a name.    

Rackham:

Yes, absolutely. And as you were saying, there are so many different ways to go about that: Through a blog, through practice groups, through – like you said – workshops. Anytime you have a chance to have a speaking engagement, that’s really helpful. So many different ways to make sure that people – like you said – not just have a name, but have a face and a sense of your personality.

Gary:

Yes.

Rackham:

Gary, thank you so much for your time today. Before we go, what’s the best way for someone interested in your services to reach you?

Gary:

I always direct people back to my website: www.yoursocialworker.com. I believe in transparency, I believe in offering a lot of good content information, so when people go to my website, they click on the services, they see my laundry list of services. You can click on any service, and it explains what my process is, my fee schedule is there. Again, open and transparent. I don’t hide anything; I don’t hold back. That way people can make informed decisions as to whether or not they want to work with me, what it might involve and what it will cost. I’m not a believer in holding that information back, requiring somebody to have to get in touch with you before they figure out what it might cost. I like to put it all out there, so it’s there. The other thing about my website, I give anyone permission to copy and paste my services. If you want to deliver the same service, go right ahead. Typically, when that happens, it’s not in the local jurisdiction anyway, so if this helps do wherever you are in the world, feel free to offer the services as I’ve written them, or use it and rewrite it and make it your own, but I’m very open with what I have to offer.

Rackham:

That’s very generous. Perfect. Thank you again, Gary.

Gary:

My pleasure, Rackham.

Rackham:

Thank you. That’s today’s show. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please leave a review on iTunes. You can find show notes for this episode, including links to any books and other resources mentioned at zephyrlaw.com/initiative. I have some more great guests lined up, so be sure to join me next time for another episode of The ADR Initiative.